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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 13, 2006 16:49:26 GMT -5
So there are.
Has been a while since I read them. Regardless, it is a minor detail, which doesn't really effect the argument I was making.
We are talking about a comic in this instance however, not the actual plotline.
Sure, it can't be exactly the same, but the party can still interact. Relationships have to start somewhere after all.
Again, from the readers perspective, it isn't necessarily the content, but the effect of that content.
While we have a nickname, it appearing a single time without context tells us very little about the group we are dealing with.
The point is to develop the characters in the eyes of the reader so that the reader understands the character.
Whether that nickname just appears and we learn why it relates to the character through its repeated use, or we see where that nickname is first earned doesn't really matter so much as does what the nickname can tell us about the character.
Which is exactly my point.
Either the drow was introduced by the witch and both of us can't remember it, or he simply appeared, and we have to make assumptions about practically every detail of the character in order for it to make any sense.
This is really just illustrating the point I am trying to make. We don't know the characters we are seeing the story through.
I have no doubt that if when the drow first showed up, that if Swiftbow had tried to introduce him in a memorable way, and/or had him get involved not only in the adventuring, but in interacting with, well, most anyone, we would have a clear picture of the character rather than guesswork and information gleaned from the character page.
The fact that all but a few characters suffer from underdevelopment to one degree or another is exactly what I am trying to point out.
All in all, I think the comic is just moving too fast in terms of introducing characters.
This is why I think it would be better if we saw for example, the Planar party go through their entire attempt to free Tchick before we jump to what the next group is doing.
That way we get a chance to effectively meet the new characters, and get a better idea of the characters we already know. It also has the added bonus of being a lot neater in terms of who is doing what.
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Post by JadedDM on Nov 13, 2006 17:42:37 GMT -5
I don't know, I would consider Meleras walking in on Elena in the shower to be quite memorable. Particularly my favorite 'sound effect' in the whole comic so far, "gentle closing noise."
Except you're second guessing here. You have no idea what the author has in store. As far as either of us know, the two separate plot lines may intersect at some point during the attempt to free Tchick, and therefore it's necessary to know what's going on with both groups before that happens.
Swiftbow has on a number of occasions mentioned that this comic's storyline was lifted from an actual campaign game, which suggests to me he's not just making it up as he goes. I just assume he has his reasons for showing us these particular pieces in this particular order, because he knows the whole picture, and we do not. Until the whole thing is eventually laid out before us can we look back and really say with any kind of certainty whether a particular sequence of events was necessary to understand the furthering plot or not.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 13, 2006 20:14:50 GMT -5
I don't know, I would consider Meleras walking in on Elena in the shower to be quite memorable. Particularly my favorite 'sound effect' in the whole comic so far, "gentle closing noise." Yet the point remains. It may be a memorable event, but at the same time, the character has scarcely had an introduction, and then the story goes elsewhere. The content, is generally very good with the comic. I am just not particularly fond of the format. I have never suggested that all the goals and events should be kept specific to one group. I am only suggesting that the skipping around should not be done without a purpose. Let's say that you have a plotline going. We will represent each plotpoint with a letter and a number designating the group it relates to. You want groups 1 and 2 to run into each other at point F. We will have 2 groups for this example. I am suggesting an update order of something like: A1,B1,C1,D1,E1 (change) C2, D2, E2 (Combine) F Rather than: A1,(change) C2,(change) B1, C1,(change) D2,(change) D1,(change) E2,(change) E1 (Combine) F or something along those lines. Clearer? You are right that I don't know what Swiftbow has planned, but if I look back at older updates, I see places where I think it would work just as well for the plot with less switching perspective. Naturally, I don't suggest that the plot be compromised, or anything else that defies common sense be done in order to support the format. I just think it would serve better if superfluous perspective changes could be eliminated wherever possible and reasonable. ---------- That said though, I think the main thing would be the fact that we keep getting new characters when we still haven't figured out the ones which came before. Anyway, continuing with the line of reasoning I have been developing with these arguments, I would suggest that instead of one set of preludes which are meant to cover everyones past, that it might work better to perhaps go so far as to just slip in some new updates to the older encounters. For example, the example of the Drow. A couple updates of interaction to fill the inbetweens such as why he is there in the first place might be nice. Something like that could be simply placed before the current introductory panel for the Drow. That would, I think work better for a new reader, though in the end, it is probably a lot of hassle. ---------- In the end though, most of these criticisms are of a minor nature. It isn't like the comic isn't enjoyable. I just think it could be made a little easier to keep track of with a format change. It would be nice to learn more about the characters that we already have before more are introduced though. I guess it kind of comes down to the "To be continued" thing. I might want to know what happens with the attempt to break Tchick out, but before I can find out, I will have to wait until we find out what the evil party has been doing or the like. Now, if the plot requires the evil party to get involved in the breakout, that is fine, but it would be kind of nice to see everything up to that point from each perspective, so there is a sense of the story flowing. Otherwise it kind of feels like watching TV and trying to watch three shows at once by flipping channels.
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Post by JadedDM on Nov 13, 2006 20:39:34 GMT -5
So far, though, the prologue has not introduced any new characters at all--unless you are including the gods that were mentioned. But I'm not sure I would really consider them new characters, since (so far) they are just part of a story. All of the other characters shown in the prologue (DOM, Gerand, Varlan, Delia, and Vec) have all ready made a number of appearances.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 13, 2006 21:25:52 GMT -5
The new character thing is just something else that the latest update reminded me of, as I was trying to recall the details of the involved FR villains.
To be specific, I was trying to recall whether Delia was the one who had been captured by the FR party earlier or not.
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Post by JadedDM on Nov 13, 2006 21:39:36 GMT -5
??? Are you maybe talking about that brown-haired woman (I don't believe she was ever given a name) that they captured along with Borf the zombie? That's the only thing I can think of that fits what you just said. In which case, no...the two women didn't look anything alike.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 14, 2006 19:46:10 GMT -5
Yep.
All I remembered was a female villain being captured by the FR party. I recalled the basic premise of the scene, but not the specifics of who was involved.
Honestly, I read these comics for the humor value primarily. Memorizing hair color in characters which appear... intermittantly at best is not something I am prone to doing.
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Post by Swiftbow on Nov 14, 2006 20:11:02 GMT -5
Wow, guys... post city! I'm going to have agree with both of you on a number of things... mostly that I am switching back and forth because of upcoming plot intersections, but also that I somewhat erred early in not introducing the FR party sooner, because I'm having to do more updates with them to catch them up. And I will tell you, I do intend to have more individual stuff for various characters, it just takes time to do it. A few of the ones you mentioned, though, Mattice, like the Faction leaders, are effectively minor characters, at least right now. Thus, you might not remember their names, but you remember they sent our heroes on a quest, so that's all that matters for now. At least I hope that's enough! And since you mentioned DOM's nickname, and that we haven't seen why he earned it, I will mention that Prologue 7 may show you why... By the way, the brown-haired woman the FR party capture is Cyless. Her companion is Borf. They're somewhat minor as well, at least for now. As for the Tchick breakout, it is my intention for that to be the story focus right after I finish the prologue. But when and where the plot intersection is coming... you will have to wait and see! Bwa ha ha... or something.
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Post by JadedDM on Nov 14, 2006 20:40:46 GMT -5
Well, I think DOM has proven himself worthy of his nickname, after he met Milny. Heh, heh.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 15, 2006 19:06:02 GMT -5
It isn't so much things like the factols (which I mentioned excluding because I know them from the campaign setting.) as the main characters.
I guess it is mainly because you have such a large cast, and most of the time, they get right down to business that it just seems difficult to keep track of all of them, at least so far as a casual reader is concerned, because we don't see a ton of them.
I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that a lot of the major characters have had about as much spotlight time as some of the minor characters.
So, if I had any say in the matter, I would recommend that the focus for the prologue would be placed on fleshing out the main characters a little more.
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Post by Brogen on Nov 15, 2006 20:44:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure but I think that drow guy may have been in a campaign that Swiftbow ran once. See Titch and this drow were friends, both non-evil's. But he might have not lifted it from that particular campaign, so I'm not sure.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 15, 2006 21:25:48 GMT -5
I seem to recall some mention of him serving Lolth though, which tends to suggest an evil character.
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Post by Swiftbow on Nov 16, 2006 2:28:20 GMT -5
Sorry Brogen, but Meleras is not from that campaign. He's an entirely new character. What his motives and morals are have not been entirely revealed yet. As for the prologue, Mattice, it seems that most folks are getting eager to get back to the present, but it is going to finish doing what I intended of it, to furnish more insight into the threat of the Nothing itself, and the origins of the FR party's quest. As for giving more time to the main characters, guess I just need to churn out some more episodes Though I won't rule out doing more backstory stuff on individual characters. I may intersperse that through the story as we go along, because that is something I've been intending to do at some point.
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Post by mattice0777 on Nov 17, 2006 11:10:27 GMT -5
At least so far, we really don't know much of anything about the nothing. We now know a little more about the origin of planes in your setting, but beyond that, there isn't all that much that the prologue told us that we did not already know.
In any case, you previously mentioned that one of your main reasons for doing a prologue is because you thought that new readers might be confused about the setting and stop reading out of frustration. As previously mentioned, I don't really think the setting is very confusing.
Anyhow, just continuing to develop the characters as you go is great for us, but not very beneficial to a new reader. If you are trying to draw in readers by endearing the characters to them, you might want to consider throwing in some stuff earlier in.
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Post by JadedDM on Nov 25, 2006 16:29:33 GMT -5
In response to Prologue 7, all I can say is DOM is now officially my favorite character. If only things like that happened to my characters. ;D
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