The Lady of Pain

[Swiftbow]

OK, so... a few people have expressed dismay that the Lady of Pain was mentally communicating with the Crazy Witch, which I have felt is kind of plot necessary. However, it may be possible to work things with her remaining (at least for now) mute, as she is normally in the campaign setting.

Do keep in mind that as far as any of the other characters know, she is just as silent as she has ever been. The Witch, for reasons I won't elaborate yet, is the only one she has communicated with.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what this poll may show! Vote please!

[mattice0777]

Just to sort of summarize my stance on it.

Personally, I think it is mainly because I have the campaign setting and the fact that the lady not only doesn't talk with other beings, regardless of their power, but scarcely interacts with them at all, but is more of an elemental force rather than a creature with an agenda.

There are just so many instances in the setting that comment on how she doesn't talk to people, fight them, or otherwise interact aside from enforcing her rules.

[Swiftbow]

Yeah, I know, I also have the campaign setting.

The biggest factor in taking some of these liberties, for me, has to do with the scope of the plot. The campaign setting also says the gods never actually make an appearance and talk to people, but Jergal (a god) is walking around and Thor has made a couple cameos, too. And there are likely to be a lot more coming soon.

Unless I change my mind, the Lady of Pain and her influence on Sigil and everything else is going to become quite a bit more important to the plot. I do think it might be possible to keep her mute for now (hence the poll), but it will become increasingly more difficult. The last two, like you mentioned, don't absolutely need her to say anything, but the next one is going to be a bit tougher if she doesn't.

However, I do want to stress that my opinion is still swayable! I'll leave off casting my vote on this until a few more post (come and post you people! )

[Grimrider]

As a Planescape purist, the idea of the Lady of Pain talking and having an agenda does leave me a little cagey. On the other hand, having her break that silence in a dramatic plot fashion can be cool, if it's handled well. As long as it doesn't become a common occurance, and as long as she doesn't stop being an aloof, mysterious force, I'll be fine with it.

Although I should note, whenever I'd do Planescape, I'd prefer to have the Dabus be the active hands in the Lady's will. When a Dabus would say something, and then somebody nearby vanished or died, everybody just kind of knew that the Lady did it.

Just my two greens.

[mattice0777]

Another thing which comes to mind is that it is really hard to write dialogue for something like the Lady of Pain, as she has no previous dialogue anywhere to base it on. For example, to me, the Lady of Pain does not seem to be the sort to tell someone she intends to kill them, she would just do it.

A couple other things:

Giving the Lady an agenda makes me worry that eventually she is going to get into a fight with some powerful being and end up getting hurt, or at least having to fight. This kind of worries me because there is just so much in the setting that warns that she should never be given stats etc.

Oh, and as to the thing with the powers/deities.

Well, deities are a lot more involved than the Lady of Pain is. It depends largely on the setting I guess, but I mean, just look at common ones like FR in which the deities actually were mortal for a time and drop avatars on Faerun on a regular basis to further their agenda.

Even in planescape, there are proxies, and, certain deities like Illsensine and Primus can be met by anyone with the skill necessary to get to them. Not that such skill is commonplace, but still, it is an option.

Even in the DM option: High level campaigns, it details divine ascension, which involves a sponsor deity.

Through all of this there is one recurring theme. Deities only directly deal with the best of the best and/or pawns in their own agendas.

The Lady of Pain however has nothing of the sort.

[Swiftbow]

Well, as to the Lady of Pain not having an agenda, I have to say I'd disagree. It's certainly the case that no one understands her agenda, but she continually takes steps towards some, unknown goal.

Consider:
- She controls the factions in Sigil. Their number, responsibilities, and rights. She may not tell them outright, but her dabus have. There once were far more factions until she decreed there would be only (I think 12, offhand), and the rest would be mazed or destroyed.
- She used to allow gods to enter the city, but when one angered her by drawing too much worship (by her definition) she blew him to smithereens.
- She controls the portals in and out of Sigil rigidly, people she doesn't want are barred, unless they manage to sneak through.
- She generally kills anybody who approaches her.
- She doesn't allow anyone to worship her, for reasons unknown. Those that do are annihilated.

Are these the actions of someone without some sort of agenda? I don't think so. That's part of what makes her mysterious. But again, just because people don't know what makes her tick, doesn't mean that something lies beneath the surface. And with a seemingly unstoppable force of Nothing threatening to destroy even the Lady, perhaps eventually we will need to actually find out.

[mattice0777]

Odd, I am not familiar with most of them.

For example, the thing with the factions. While I have read that there were previously more factions, I have not read that she was responsible for their destruction. Rather, I don't think she had any role in which faction does what, but rather just enforces her own set of rules and leaves the factions to deal with the day to day goings on.

Still, for the most part you are right. So, I rephrase:

The Lady of Pain is not commonly seen as an individual who cares about anything except the smooth operation of her own city and personal authority.

Now, while I could see her perhaps getting involved in the event that something(or nothing, heh) threatened her power and her city, I just can't picture her getting involved in the events, but, rather, staying true to form, just directly intervening once her interests were threatened.

In the end, the Lady of Pain is just too mysterious to really put a defined set of goals on her, and personally anyway, that is how I like it. It is kind of a part of the setting, the unsolvable mystery behind her is one of those things that is just... well, built in.

Of course, such is the case with any character like that. They start as a completely blank slate, and then is endeared to the reader. Then... later, someone starts filling in the blanks and, since we already like the character as is, it just seems wrong, especially with a character like the Lady, who really is built around the concept of the impossibility of figuring her out.

In truth, I suspect the Lady of Pain was originally designed just so Sigil could exist the way the game designers wanted it, and incorporate a way to enforce it/preserve it. However, the concept was beautifully designed into a part of the setting itself.

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To sort of sum it up though, my own opinion stems from the same sort of thing you get when people write fanfics about characters like Raistlin, Elminster, or other sorts. I remember reading "the preludes" series for Dragonlance. Since I loved the canon stuff so much, I kept looking at them every time they did something different. I distinctly remember things like the author getting the color of one of the moons wrong, as well as the color of Tika's hair. Oh, and they had a half orc, which there aren't supposed to be any of on Krynn.

Things like that. While the books themselves were not bad, I didn't enjoy them. There were just too many things I saw as being "wrong."

That isn't to say you are making errors in your comic. It seems to me that you think all of what you write out through and it all has a pretty solid basis behind it. Still, the mere fact that you are filling in blanks the canon stuff doesn't evokes the same response with me, and I assume others of a similar view. As I have mentioned a few times previously. "It just seems wrong."

Figured I would explain a bit.

[Grimrider]

I'd like to point out that Swiftbow's points on the Lady are, indeed, correct. The Lady of Pain issued the decree that started the Great Upheaval, demanding that there be only 15 Factions in Sigil. It is also true that she has an agenda and plays the Factions like puppets. In Factol's Manifesto, it tells the story of the strange Indep Plague that spread through the city.

After the Upheaval, several Faction members disbanded and joined the Free League, feeling it would be safe because they "weren't really a Faction". The Lady, however, didn't have the ability to control or manipulate huge numbers of independant free-thinkers. So she created a disease that cut their numbers down to a suitable size.

There was also the Incantifiers...formerly a Faction, now a Sect. They gained so much power in Sigil that they started manipulating all the other Factions towards their ends. Then they just vanished one day...members, headquarters, and all just gone. It didn't directly state who was responsible, but everybody can guess.

Point is, I agree with Swiftbow that the Lady does appear to have an agenda. Nobody understands what it is, is all. As long as Her Serenity keeps her aloof aura of mystery intact, I'm happy with whatever happens in the comic.

[JadedDM]

I don't see a problem with the Lady of Pain speaking, at least not in this instance. I mean, the entire multi-verse is being sucked up. It's not unthinkable for unusual things to happen under such dire circumstances.

Also, if you ever read the Bloodwar Trilogy, the Lady did speak a couple of times. It wasn't a big, public declaration or anything. It was in private, to specific individuals integral to the main story. So there is some precedence.

Incidentally, I like the font you use for the Lady's speech. It gives it a mystical quality.

[Swiftbow]

I haven't read the Bloodwar Trilogy, but that's good to know. Was she speaking to dabus, or some factols?

Incidentally, that font is the official Planescape font, called Exocet. You can download it from planewalker.com here.

[JadedDM]

It's been awhile, but I believe it was the main character she spoke to. He wasn't part of any faction, though. He was a prime, if I recall, in fact. I think he died, and then was brought back as some kind of servant of the Lady. Not a dabus, though. Sorry, it's been awhile since I read them, so my memory is rusty.

[Grimrider]

Actually, both myself and several Planescape fans on the Net find the Planescape novels to be horrible atrocities that ignore and defy most of the conventions of the setting...so it's not surprising that the Lady of Pain speaks in them.

Generally, she's not supposed to. But I'm a purist, so I get uptight that way.

Given that this is Swift's comic, and that the circumstances are special, I don't think it really matters.

But I still don't like the novels...

[mattice0777]

Yeah, I think that sums it up nicely for myself as well, though I know nothing about the planescape novels.

It seems wrong that she talks, but in the end it isn't like it ruins the comic for even the purists among your audience.

Though, I must admit, using the Dabus would be interesting. I never really understood how anyone could use the Dabus in a real game.

I mean, you would have to come up with numerous responses ahead of time, have the things relatively non interactive, or limit them to yes, no, and other simple thoughts for their responses.

In a comic though, they would work fine.

[JadedDM]

I didn't like the novels much, either. But I was just pointing out they did give precedence to the idea of the Lady addressing someone directly. Whether or not they are canon is up to debate, but that can be said about anything with the Planescape logo on it. Fans have, and always will, dismiss the things they don't like and add the things they do like, regardless of whether it's 'official' material or not.

I mean, if you want to be really picky, you can complain how beholders are 'supposed' to be evil, too. But a good DM (or I suppose author in this case) knows when to bend the rules or make exceptions to tell a good story.