Comic Comments

[mattice0777]

Not much to say about the last two, as you said, actiony stuff is coming soon. A little backstory is always interesting, and I am trying to guess as to what direction the rest of it is going to go.

One thing that did draw my attention however, was that when I try to load the page, I get a prompt asking for a password for an IP address. After cancelling, it did load up normally.

I looked up the address and it is for a Texas based provider(not mine). I have double checked and it is definately your site, and not my computer, as I thought I might have had some sort of password fishing malware or something.

[Swiftbow]

No, it's the tagboard malfunctioning. I'm hoping somebody didn't crash their site, as I paid ten bucks for that thing.

It shouldn't do that now, though, as I've taken the tagboard down until they fix it. Thanks, though!

[JadedDM]

Hmm, interesting. Here are my predictions:

1. The first world is, in fact, Oerth. I mean, it is technically the first world.

2. The Lady goddess is actually the Lady of Pain.

3. The Nothing, is in fact, caused by WotC not picking up Planescape and letting it fade away. The only way to stop the Nothing is to give the Lady of Pain a new name. And this can only be done by a human boy from outside the boundaries of Fantas--I mean, the Planes.

*rushes to a window and screams out into the storm* Moonchild!!!

Anyway, I await to find out how close my predictions are! Probably not at all.

[mattice0777]

Well, couple new updates. I guess I really don't have a whole lot to say about what is going on.

I enjoyed the used armor ad you had on there, but it sort of reminded me that there hasn't been much humor in the last few.

I find myself missing Tommy's exploits and other things of that nature. The ratio of humor to plot seems to have changed recently, and I guess I had been thinking of the Planescape Survival Guide primarily as a humor comic like OOTS.

That said, I am guessing that this exposition is mainly to provide backstory so the plot continues to make sense, allowing the comic to start going again without having to explain distant backstory as it goes.

I am looking forward to coming updates, but to be honest, I prefer the comic in its previous more humor oriented form.

[Swiftbow]

Don't worry! I'm not done being funny! (That said, I'm glad you think I'm usually funny )

Speaking of Tommy stuff, Tommy 1 will be making his appearance shortly, and I also figure the prologue is almost over. I would estimate it at about 7 eps in all (we're on 5). Also, now that I've gotten through the high-falutin' universe creatin' stuff, I'm going to try to include jokey stuff as often as possible again.

Oh, and Jaded... I will say that at least some of your predictions may be at least partially right. Is that vague enough?

[Swiftbow]

Oh, hey... I do want to ask you guys:

My plan has been to move these prologue episodes, when the sequence is finished, to the beginning of the comic. The current episode 1 would then take place after the prologue is over. Do you all think that's a good idea? I'm personally of a mind that a lot of people probably read the first few eps, don't quite get what is going on very easily, and leave, which is why I want I want to do that. But, given some reaction, are the prologue eps interesting enough to grab new readers? I know they're a bit slower than the main eps, but then again, people would be reading them in quick succession, rather than having to wait like you patient folks

Anyway, just wondering what you all think!

[mattice0777]

Well, the prologue is built into the storyline, as it starts when the cultist or whatever you want to call the black robed guy began telling the story when the FR party found them.

So, there is that.

Second would be the fact that most of your comic is a humor comic. Most of the prologue thus far has had very little humor in it, so I think moving it to the front might end up giving people the wrong impression of the thing. Not to mention my personal opinion of not enjoying it as much as the majority of your comic.

As for the setting, I think the stuff you have does a very good job of explaining how things work on the planes. Better in fact than what the prologue does, as the prologue thus far at least goes back into campaign backstory rather than planescape backstory.

You only need planescape information to understand the overall setting.

So, I would vote no to putting it on the front end.

-------

As for things as they are, I think I read most of your comic in one sitting when I first found it, because it immediately got my interest. Lack of campaign backstory didn't even come into play.

If you really want to bring in new readers and posters, I would suggest posting at a few forums, perhaps putting a link to your comic in your profile. Most of these forums have a dim view on advertising except in sections devoted only to that, but since it is D&D material, just keeping it in your signature section would likely not cause any concern.

Here are a couple I occasionally post at which have a large audience:

www.planetadnd.com/forums/index.php

www.giantitp.com/forums/

I will put a link in my own little forum as well. I have only a handful of players who use it, but they might not know about it.

[mattice0777]

Well, new update.

Hmm...

I notice the comic seems to jump around a lot. I honestly haven't got even the slightest idea why the bad guy group is in the dalelands, as, given this is prologue, I imagine it is explaining something from quite a ways back.

Unfortunately, it has been quite some time since I read those comics, so it is effectively drawing up a blank if there had been a previous explanation for their showing up there.

Another piece of criticism I can add in, as this one kind of reminded me of it, is that you have so many characters that I have a difficult time keeping them straight, and while there are some that have had development, or otherwise made themselves memorable, there seem to be a lot of other characters which show up rarely enough that all I can really do from memory is recall which group they were a part of.

[Swiftbow]

Argh!

Well, their reasoning for being there is going to be in the next one, as, this being a prologue, new readers wouldn't know anyway. That was one of my big reasons for doing this, really, as I have been of the opinion that I never adequately explained who the three Dales bad guys (Varlan, Vec, and Delia) were, why they had apparently kidnapped children, or why the other heroes were even pursuing them. Anyway, I hope with number 7 you'll feel somewhat less confused.

As for the number of characters... I guess it's too late to go back now, lol.

Oh, and by the way, I have posted a number of times on the Order of the Stick forums, as well as a bunch of others. It does bring in hits, but I constantly worry about fan confusion, which is why I was hoping this prologue would help. But maybe I shouldn't despair on that just yet?

[mattice0777]

Well, I have an old adage I am very fond of that may help a little.

"The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging."

This prologue is a bit confusing, yes, but mainly because you have so much going on in so many different places.

I suggest that instead of jumping around so much, you focus on one thing at a time, and play it out to its conclusion, at least so far as a task goes.

Pick one of the following:

Group: The group has a goal, follow them while they achieve it, putting everyone else on the back burner for the moment.

Area: You alternate between the usually opposed groups in a single area, and have them do whatever it is they are doing.

That not only gives some time for character development, but it also provides the opportunity for the plot to get up a momentum.

One final thing:

When introducing new characters, I personally prefer it if a new character comes in in such a way that their arrival is memorable, and you get an idea of how the character is simply by their opening scene.

An example of the sort of thing that confused me with your comic might be the dragon. It just seems to have appeared, and then ended up being more or less forgotten shortly thereafter.

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Here is an idea: It seems to me that your prologue is pretty much done.

Stop considering these latest ones part of the prologue(World creation, etc.) and instead, give each party a little bit of history. The latest ones could be the badguy party's backstory for example.

[JadedDM]

I haven't had any problem with the prologue so far. It's not at all necessary to give us (the readers) full disclosure right off the bat. If you do, then there's no room for surprise twists down the line.

I mean, yeah, we don't know what the Daleland villains are up to, or why, but then again, neither does the FR party (at least not at that point in the prologue, anyway). All they know is, "Holy crap a mage is burning us to death!!!" and that's really all we need to know, too. It helps us relate to them better. (Okay, well actually we know a lot more about them than that at this point, but assuming you are going to put the prologue at the beginning, then that's all the new readers would know at that point.)

I don't have any issue in identifying characters, too. They all seem very distinct in appearance to me. Essentially, you can divide them up into three basic groups: PS party, FR party and the bad guys. There are one or two that don't really fall into any of those niches, but nevertheless, I wouldn't say your cast is too big at this point.

This prologue is a bit confusing, yes, but mainly because you have so much going on in so many different places.

How is it confusing? Here, let me sum it up for you.

A band of adventurers enter a tavern on Toril and see some crazy cultist guy rambling. Said crazy cult guy tells them a strange creation story. Then a woman (whom we recognize as one of the story's villains) burns down that tavern and kills many of its occupants for reasons yet unknown (to both us and the FR party, however based on what Varlan said, I suspect the tavern fire is meant as some kind of distraction).

How is that confusing? Unless by 'confusing' you mean he's not giving us full disclosure, but I don't believe that's necessary. As an experienced DM of over 11 years, one thing I've learned about story-telling is that if you reveal all your cards right off the bat, then you'll have nothing left later on.

[mattice0777]

I don't have any issue in identifying characters, too. They all seem very distinct in appearance to me. Essentially, you can divide them up into three basic groups: PS party, FR party and the bad guys. There are one or two that don't really fall into any of those niches, but nevertheless, I wouldn't say your cast is too big at this point.

How about an example then. Off the top of my head, I can only list off a handfull of characters by name:

Tchick
Tommy(s)
Archimedes
The Witch
Milny

There are also some others like the Lady of Pain or the factols, but I know them from other media as well.

The rest, I would have to look up in order to remember who they are. I doubt I could really just say off the top of my head how many major characters there are in the series either.

There is nothing wrong with a large cast, but I think this one has grown too fast for them to have time to make themselves memorable.

I mean, how many characters in the strip haven't even had a single full update dedicated to their personal exploits or the equivalent?

How is that confusing? Unless by 'confusing' you mean he's not giving us full disclosure, but I don't believe that's necessary.

Neither do I, nor did I say anything about full disclosure at any point.

I mean confusing because, with the exception of the beginning of the comic, the strip seems to be jumping back and forth not only in time, but also between groups.

For example, we have a few comics about one party, then we follow the exploits of say, a separated Milny for a few, then it jumps to another party, then back and forth so much that by the time we get back to the group we have started with, it has been long enough that you have to look back quite a ways to see what they were doing last.

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The plot itself isn't particularly confusing, the fact that, as I said before, there is rarely any momentum, prevents the story from having much in the way of flow.

Just as we get interested in one group, it jumps away and we don't hear about them for quite some time.

[JadedDM]

A story shifting between various groups is not an uncommon practice in storytelling, especially in webcomics.

For instance, in Order of the Stick, the story usually jumps between the exploits of the Order for a bit, then will jump to show what Xykon and his minions are up to, or perhaps Miko or some other character. This happens all of the time. In Goblins, the story will jump between Fumbles in Brassmoon, the party itself, and the white-skinned goblin clan where Dies is currently at.

[mattice0777]

A good example. However, in both of these examples, we are dealing with only a few characters.

There are 4 main characters in the order of the stick, and with Xycon's group, we are dealing with the main bad guy and two important minions of his.

We shift back and forth between those two groups in OOTS, learning a little more each time.

By the time the linear guild shows up, the main characters and Xykon are already well known to the reader.

There are also numerous other things in OOTS that help us understand the characters. Some of the characters have a gimmick or some sort of relationship/interaction with the rest of the group they are with which helps us understand the character. Belkar's interaction with V for example, or Xykon and Redcloak.

In any case, it gives us time to learn about what we have before it starts introducing more. By the time we first see Xykon, we already know the main group and so forth.

----------

In the survival guide, the planescape group is the one we have spent the most time with. Tchick and Archimedes were around at the very beginning, and there is time and interaction enough to understand their personality for example.

The main planescape group, while we have been around it quite a while, has been mostly business thus far, and there haven't been many actions which were particularly memorable and/or helped us understand the characters while they quested.

The others, we mostly just see showing up and doing things like attacking a bunch of fiends or battling Cyricists.

Then there are characters which seem to suddenly appear. The drow guy pops immediately to mind, as, I recall him just walking into the tavern the party was in, and everyone seemed to know him and include him in their efforts.

I am still unsure if he is actually a new addition to the planescape party, or just someone they happened to run into. At the same time, I scarcely know the character, as he has only shown up in a handfull of strips.

[JadedDM]

There are actually six members of the Order of the Stick: Roy, Elan, Haley, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar.

There are also numerous other things in OOTS that help us understand the characters. Some of the characters have a gimmick or some sort of relationship/interaction with the rest of the group they are with which helps us understand the character. Belkar's interaction with V for example, or Xykon and Redcloak.

That's not as feasible in this instance, though. The OotS worked together long before the first comic ever began. This is implied in several areas, and from what I understand, Rich Burlew released a book that told the story of how they all first met (which took place before they went to fight Xykon). In this comic, though, the Planescape party have just met. They haven't really had time to form any kind of bond or relationship with each other--rather, like you said, it's all business. They were told by their respective factions to do this, and so they do.

Now the FR party does seem to have been adventuring together for awhile when they are first introduced, and it shows by the fact that they "accept" the numerous Timmy's and one character even has a nickname (Dirty Old Man). But it seems like the prologue is helping in establishing their own motives, at least partially so far.

The drow, Meleras, may have seem a little random, but from what I can gather from reading the comic he first appeared in, the PS party did not know him (at least, Elena did not, as she introduced herself formally). Rather, it seemed like the crazy Witch did and was expecting him.

As for whether or not he's joining the PS party, well, he's listed in the Cast as one of the Heroes, so I would think so. But recently, the story has been focusing on the FR party, so I guess we'll find out when the story returns to the PS party.